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Old Mar. 28, 2017, 08:53 PM   #61
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

i said willy nilly, so completely unessential to the theme or plot. but honestly i'm getting off topic with this, because the nature of art criticism is pretty tangential to everything else
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Old Mar. 28, 2017, 09:11 PM   #62
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

If they're just throwing in rapes for no reason without context then yeah, that would make me uncomfortable.

Doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem with culture as a whole, it means whoever wrote the story is bad at writing.

(This post has been edited)

Last edited by Ryu-Gi; Mar. 28, 2017 at 09:23 PM.
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Old Mar. 28, 2017, 09:36 PM   #63
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

well yeah but what if there is a problem with the culture as a whole

like what if like hypothetically 11.2% of college students experience rape or sexual assault

and then like somebody makes a video game called "God Of War: Kratos Commits Sexual Violence On Campus"

or wait even that's a bad argument, I dunno I'd make a better one but like I'm pretty zonked right now
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On the Nightmare Network Our names are unknown and our faces are shadows drifting across an infinite blackness. Our voices have been stifled to a soft murmur in a madman's ear. We are the proud failures with only a single joy left to us to inflict rampant damage on those who have fed themselves on our

dreams and to choke ourselves on our own nightmares. In sum, we are expediters of the apocalypse. There is nothing left to save, if there ever was anything . . . if there ever could be.

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Old Mar. 28, 2017, 10:08 PM   #64
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

Read a smattering of posts in this thread.









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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 04:55 AM   #65
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

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If they're just throwing in rapes for no reason without context then yeah, that would make me uncomfortable.

Doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem with culture as a whole, it means whoever wrote the story is bad at writing.

(This post has been edited)
Surely all rape scenes should make one feel uncomfortable regardless of the context?

Back to the original topic though. I think it's always fine if you want to believe that gender is something that is set in stone and I think you have the right to believe that. But, what I dislike is when people put these kind of views out there knowing that it will hurt some people and then when anyone questions them on these beliefs they get told they are overeating or it's some sort of liberal agenda trying to restrict "free speech" etc. Like no, you started the conversation, so don't feel annoyed or attacked when people disagree with you.
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 06:55 AM   #66
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

is making ryu gi admit that putting rape into a story for no particular reason is morally impermissible some form of entrapment scheme

because i could see that




hey can i say and or ask something

because ive been reading some of these posts and also the stuff in the other thread

i think its a thing that this particular scene was produced by japanese people from japan

like i know very little about japanese culture but perhaps some of the more well educated people could enlighten me about how trans people function in a society that to me appears to be pretty obsessed with peoples outward appearance in society and how that appearance reflects on the people that associate with them

and you know even though nintendo games are a global product you have to admit that theyre still very japanese which is something that i guess factors here


i realize that should probably go in the botw thread but frankly whatever the original point of this thread was supposed to be im sure we can all agree its silly and not really worth putting all that much effort into


the only thing id like to say in regards to it is that like ive said before i think it bears reminding that white or i guess in this case cis babyism is a thing that shouldnt be trivialized

and much how i am often told how people dont enjoy it when i jump at the chance to point out why i think their opinion about a movie/game/music/other entertainment product of choice is bad perhaps its worth considering that you can do the same thing with peoples opinions about social issues and ethics

and im sure those opinions are way more important than nerdy preferences but the emotional impact is probably about the same especially considering we socialize in particularly nerd rich circles

me because im a person of little substance and with particularly flexible morals i dont really care most of the time but some other people might be a bit more protective of their convictions



tl;dr:

dumb joke about ryu gis alleged rape fantasies

is japanese culture transphobic

can we all please resist our corrective urges a bit more because being told theyre wrong all the time makes people feel bad about themselves
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we really should of just listened to poe and done diplomacy
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 06:58 AM   #67
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

oh i hadnt actually seen the points made about japanese culture in the other topic yet i guess ill go read up on it there never mind the question i asked even though it looks like i was quite a bit more nuanced in bringing it up
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 08:36 AM   #68
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poe the Great View Post
is making ryu gi admit that putting rape into a story for no particular reason is morally impermissible some form of entrapment scheme

because i could see that




hey can i say and or ask something

because ive been reading some of these posts and also the stuff in the other thread

i think its a thing that this particular scene was produced by japanese people from japan

like i know very little about japanese culture but perhaps some of the more well educated people could enlighten me about how trans people function in a society that to me appears to be pretty obsessed with peoples outward appearance in society and how that appearance reflects on the people that associate with them

and you know even though nintendo games are a global product you have to admit that theyre still very japanese which is something that i guess factors here


i realize that should probably go in the botw thread but frankly whatever the original point of this thread was supposed to be im sure we can all agree its silly and not really worth putting all that much effort into


the only thing id like to say in regards to it is that like ive said before i think it bears reminding that white or i guess in this case cis babyism is a thing that shouldnt be trivialized

and much how i am often told how people dont enjoy it when i jump at the chance to point out why i think their opinion about a movie/game/music/other entertainment product of choice is bad perhaps its worth considering that you can do the same thing with peoples opinions about social issues and ethics

and im sure those opinions are way more important than nerdy preferences but the emotional impact is probably about the same especially considering we socialize in particularly nerd rich circles

me because im a person of little substance and with particularly flexible morals i dont really care most of the time but some other people might be a bit more protective of their convictions



tl;dr:

dumb joke about ryu gis alleged rape fantasies

is japanese culture transphobic

can we all please resist our corrective urges a bit more because being told theyre wrong all the time makes people feel bad about themselves
japanese culture isn't uniquely transphobic; transphobia is pretty much present across the world, as is antiblackness. It often feels like a bit of a weird jab at japan when people use cultural relativism as an excuse for bad behavior.


Can we agree that there are some convictions that aren't ok? Societal boundaries DO exist, and saying trans women aren't women, trans men aren't men, and that non binary people don't exist and citing bullshit biological science as proof isn't any more acceptable than saying interracial marriage is wrong for the same reason. It's simple as that, and it's frustrating to see people indulging it as a reasonable possibility because of how harmful a conviction like that is and can be.

We don't indulge parsing the ethics of rape as a forum. We don't indulge outward racism. We shouldn't indulge transphobia.
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 10:07 AM   #69
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

Yeah dude you just felt free to correct me about jinn/genie in another thread (which was fine! I learned something! even if I briefly felt a bit stupid!) so I think it's not just fair but fucking necessary to push back when people in our community say or endorse transphobic stuff and expect that their ego can probably handle it
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 10:48 AM   #70
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Yeah dude you just felt free to correct me about jinn/genie in another thread (which was fine! I learned something! even if I briefly felt a bit stupid!) so I think it's not just fair but fucking necessary to push back when people in our community say or endorse transphobic stuff and expect that their ego can probably handle it
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On the Nightmare Network Our names are unknown and our faces are shadows drifting across an infinite blackness. Our voices have been stifled to a soft murmur in a madman's ear. We are the proud failures with only a single joy left to us to inflict rampant damage on those who have fed themselves on our

dreams and to choke ourselves on our own nightmares. In sum, we are expediters of the apocalypse. There is nothing left to save, if there ever was anything . . . if there ever could be.
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 11:11 AM   #71
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

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can we all please resist our corrective urges a bit more because being told theyre wrong all the time makes people feel bad about themselves
Fucking hell, Poe. 'Corrective urges'? One person is literally calling being transgender a mental illness (while citing sixth-grade biology to back up that bullshit), and another is literally dictating what I can and can't be offended by. I don't give a fuck about how bad they feel about themselves. This is the exact sort of rhetoric I see right alongside people laughing at the idea of hurting and killing trans people. Being told we're sick, being talked down to because we get upset about things that have been historically used to dehumanize us? We're supposed to just quietly accept that, because of their feelings? Have to protect their fragile egos, when they're saying things in line with people who have actually murdered trans people? God fucking dammit, Poe. This isn't some distant hypothetical work of fiction, this is my fucking life which is under attack every day from more angles than you can imagine. So fucking forgive me if I don't want to have to take it here, around people I thought I could trust and feel safe around and not expect to have to defend my very right to exist for once in my life. And if the fragile emotional state of the people who tell me these things is what you think needs the most defending, maybe I won't make the mistake of giving you that trust again.
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Old Mar. 29, 2017, 03:26 PM   #72
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

goddamn tk I'm hugging you through the internet right now if that's cool

ok the following thing keeps happening and I don't know what to do about it anymore:

1. person A says something that, PROBABLY UNINTENTIONALLY, touches on a sensitive subject with some degree of insensitivity

2. person B, who has throughout their life been directly and repeatedly affected by this sensitive subject through their lived experience, is like 'hey just so you know I'm hurt by that rhetoric'

3. person A feels personally attacked and the conversation immediately becomes about their feelings and not the feelings of person B, who is still legitimately hurt

4. person A continues to insist on feeling persecuted when multiple parties intervene to point out that it's NOT ABOUT THEM but about a larger societal ill that has been perpetuated in this scenario

5. etc.

and it's just like why the fuck don't you guys learn from any of this? ever? we keep having the same argument over and over and it's unbearable. why is the fact that person A feels insulted for being told they misspoke more important than the fact that person B feels hurt by a phobia/bias that has followed them around their entire lives and maybe they came to zp specifically to not have that happen to them? the fuck is wrong with you guys?

this shit keeps happening and it keeps happening along such starkly delineated divisions of gender and/or race that it's really starting to feel shitty for women/queer people/poc to hang out here. none of us want to have to tiptoe around your fucking feelings when we need to tell you that you're wrong and you're hurting us. we've been tiptoeing around your fucking feelings our entire fucking lives. I know some of you will say well now you say that it's starting to feel like it's not a welcome space for white men and you know what every space in all of society is already for you. guess you get this one as well fucking enjoy it
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 01:58 AM   #73
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

i am backing out of this discussion

i dont want to be a part of a conversation where asking people to respect each others feelings and not be constantly condemning of each other can be amenably construed as me being a trans-violence apologist

this is why i dont want to talk about these subjects anymore

i know myself and i know i am a tolerant and accepting person who believes people are allowed to make their own decisions on how they want to live their life

and while a lot of stuff that people like to do are things that i personally have no experience with and am unable to understand i support their right to do it

and its for that reason that sure im pretty bad at articulating my feelings on such subjects in a way that expresses my tolerance and acceptance because when youre talking about shit you dont understand youre gonna sound like a dick

furthermore when it comes to subjects that involve larger than life consequences for some people even though they dont actually touch you its very easy to have all sorts of opinions about them that are pretty dumb and will likely end up hurting someones feelings

i usually operate in very tiny social circles which either a) i am forced into out of circumstance (like my job which puts me on a floating tin can with the same dozen people for several months) or b) i have worked long and hard to find and manage to get accepted into (i do pretty much all of my other socializing as a member of hobby groups and clubs)

that means i cant really afford to alienate people by bringing up important subjects like politics religion and social issues and engage in discussions about that because those areas of conversation are emotional minefields

unfortunately for me i cant stand small talk so to be able to engage in meaningful discussion about any subject i maintain an identity as a nerd because being a nerd allows me to have strong arguments and pointed discussions about topics that dont involve so many of those emotional mines

i can enjoy the dynamic of a pitched conversation without having to worry about hurting anybodys feelings and thats great

on the other hand talking about subjects like we are in this topic makes me sweaty and nervous because apparently there was a mine under what i thought was a pretty innocuous hillock i could have a cup of tea on

and staying in the mines metaphor every time this conversation happens it feels like a bunch of people are instapicking techies mid or dc



(in case you dont get it its a dota reference)



anyway i guess that makes me a coward whose too lazy to buy a mine detector (ie educate himself on social issues)


but emotional mines arent really a good metaphor because stepping on one hurts the person who placed it too and thats the thing im most worried about

not the thing blowing up in my face because i did that myself and im not a baby who cant deal with the consequences of how dumb he is

its the big gaping craters that are left behind

its just that not engaging seems like the easiest way to avoid all that
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 02:17 AM   #74
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"Agreeing that we disagree" sounds fine by me.

Part of me is confused as to why I brought up the subject to begin with.
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 02:43 AM   #75
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fuck off, ryu, no one cares what sounds fine by you

poe, i am at least sorry that i went as hardball as i did on you, but you are a person i like and respect and that makes it hit harder when you say something hurtful then when a self-righteous jackass i don't actually care about says it. but the thing is, this 'respecting opinions' thing - well first off it implies that their opinion is worth respecting, and it's an opinion specifically built on the disrespect of my very identity so respecting that is never going to be a suggestion that goes over well with me. and second off, it's hard to achieve mutual respect when there's such a severe power imbalance. people actually get away with murdering trans people, you know? 'i suddenly discovered she had a penis and it shocked me so much it led to temporary insanity' is a tried-and-true legal defense. the 'trans panic defense'. that's the sort of thing i'm up against. a world that actually doesn't seem to care if i die.

and you don't get that, and you know, that's great! like, really! it's a good thing you don't have that hanging over you, and i'm not going to demand that you empathize fully with a situation so far out of your wheelhouse. i'm not looking for you to fully understand. hell, i'm not looking for you to never make mistakes. all i need is trust and support. trust that i know the situation, and support when others deny me that same trust. i get the desire for a middle ground, but in this case, one of the things i'd like for you to trust me with is that middle grounds don't always exist, because this is a life-and-death situation for trans people, and what we really need isn't compromise, it's just - straight up acceptance. when we can be accepted without it having to be a debate, when we're just there instead of something to have opinions on, that's the only real victory. if you have even some of the respect for me that i have for you, then please, just do that much, take 'trans issues' beyond opinion and just accept us as people that should exist without debate, without middle grounds, and that'll be plenty.
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 03:20 AM   #76
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Default Re: [SD]Just stating my opinion for the record...

ryu gi if you think anything i am saying is even remotely intended to somehow give you the right to maintain your position you are deluded

if there is one thing i hope you will but fear you wont take away from this whole ordeal its that your opinion is poorly informed and stating it 'for the record' was a mistake

rather that when you know nothing of what you are talking about its probably best to listen to the people that do know take what they are saying to heart nod quietly and walk away

agreeing to disagree with a bunch of people who are living with this is quite short sighted


and tk what i think you misunderstand is that when i ask you to respect peoples feelings im not asking you to respect their opinions

i acknowledge everything you say about the reality of the situation and welcome anybody to inform those who are ignorant to it about it in an effort to increase their understanding

what irks me is what i perceive as a disregard not for the validity of their opinions but for the emotional attachment they have to them which is real and cant be rationalized away that easily even if its dumb and shouldnt exist
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 03:56 AM   #77
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oh, well then you're just wrong. people were more than patient at first - hell, in the original conversation sy went so far as to call something 'a bit awkward' when the proper term is 'extremely insulting', with him and prooker not being real calm in explaining why these things hurt us and even giving examples of things that did it right in non-harmful ways. the problems came because even that was enough to cause certain people you know who you are to double down on 'we know your situation better than you do, you're wrong and i don't need to say anything else'.

how long do you respect someone's feelings when they're brushing yours aside? how long can you take the high road before that's nothing but allowing them to get away with their behavior without consequence? how long do i have to be told that my feelings are wrong before it's okay to treat their feelings with the same regard? and when does it become enough of a regular thing for me, where i sometimes can't go daily without someone reminding me just how little they respect me, before i can just refuse to deal with it any more? when do my feelings on my own issues become more relevant than theirs?
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 09:56 AM   #78
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what irks me is what i perceive as a disregard not for the validity of their opinions but for the emotional attachment they have to them which is real and cant be rationalized away that easily even if its dumb and shouldnt exist
Hey just chiming in to say that the only way to have a constructive argument without directly attacking that emotional attachment is to start on the ground that whatever oppressed minority is less than human, and just sort of hope the person you're arguing with eventually comes around on their own, when you like subtly point out all the ways that they're human

Which like I honestly don't think is an argument I need to have with you or Tom or Pirate, like I'm pretty sure you guys are alright and accepting and not babies, like I shouldn't have to tip toe around your deeply held white supremacist beliefs like you're my fucking grandma, but that's what it feels like I have to do every time this #ALLFEELINGSMATTER bullshit comes up

Edit: also just for the record, You're a fucking dumbass Rye Guy

Edit: like I honestly don't understand how this is still going on like the original argument in that thread basically went like this

Muffin: haha Skyward Sword was sort of homophobic
Gabe: haha yeah well BOTW is sort of transphobic
Pirate: haha yeah like this right? *posts link in a skirt
Gabe: Nah dog I was talking about the beard joke
Pirate: oh I didn't really think that was a joke
Gabe: well it totally was and it was shitty
Pirate: hmm I dunno that just seems sort of like a harmless joke to me
Gabe: Nah dog that joke is like part of a culture that encourages violence against gender non-conforming people
Pirate: oh I didn't think about it like that ( <--- this is where it should have ended) Guess I'll go continue this argument in Ryu's Thread
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On the Nightmare Network Our names are unknown and our faces are shadows drifting across an infinite blackness. Our voices have been stifled to a soft murmur in a madman's ear. We are the proud failures with only a single joy left to us to inflict rampant damage on those who have fed themselves on our

dreams and to choke ourselves on our own nightmares. In sum, we are expediters of the apocalypse. There is nothing left to save, if there ever was anything . . . if there ever could be.

Last edited by freepooper; Mar. 30, 2017 at 11:24 AM.
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 11:26 AM   #79
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wait what beard joke
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Old Mar. 30, 2017, 11:35 AM   #80
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While Vilia is giving you the gerudo clothes her veil blows off and it's revealed she has a beard and link responds with a comic shock take

I sort of missed it while playing too since it's so quick and I was just like "wait there was something gray on her face, was that a transphobic joke? or just something weird?" but it's like definitely there
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On the Nightmare Network Our names are unknown and our faces are shadows drifting across an infinite blackness. Our voices have been stifled to a soft murmur in a madman's ear. We are the proud failures with only a single joy left to us to inflict rampant damage on those who have fed themselves on our

dreams and to choke ourselves on our own nightmares. In sum, we are expediters of the apocalypse. There is nothing left to save, if there ever was anything . . . if there ever could be.

Last edited by freepooper; Mar. 30, 2017 at 11:37 AM.
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